The Guitar Refinishing and Restoration Forum Forum Index The Guitar Refinishing and Restoration Forum
This discussion forum is hosted by The Guitar ReRanch and was created to serve those interested in the arcane art/science of guitar refinishing and restoration. Those with all levels of experience are welcomed to participate.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Jazzmaster pickups are over-wound, I think

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Guitar Refinishing and Restoration Forum Forum Index -> Pick-ups, Amps and Electronics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
greysun



Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 421
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:01 pm    Post subject: Jazzmaster pickups are over-wound, I think Reply with quote

I just wound 2 jazzmaster pups on my homemade winder. One is 9200 turns and measures at 8.3k. The other is 9800 turns and measures at a whopping 9.5k.

Usually it's like 8.0 and 8.4 for neck/bridge, respectively - I'm not sure why this particular batch is reading so high - but what difference can I expect with this? Should I remove some winding? If so, how will I know what the right amount is?

Jazzmaster pickups are VERY bright - if having these values will soften it a bit, I'm okay with that... I just don't want to have them be too quiet or too muddled.

Thoughts?
_________________
this is the beginning...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heavy Air



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 4309
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's with 42 gauge right? Those outputs are quite high for the number of turns, sounds like you are winding quite loose.

If it helps, 10,000 turns gets me 8.5K with 42 awg on a vintage spaced thin bobbin, I can't say my TPL count on those winds (gotta keep some secrets) but it's pretty typical, nothing crazy enough to alter the output readings.
_________________
New Website for my handwound Pickups! Heavy Air Pickups PM me for RR pricing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
greysun



Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 421
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. 42 gauge formvar. What will happen if I just leave them? Will the sound be too muffled? I'm curious...
_________________
this is the beginning...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heavy Air



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 4309
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You won't know until you try them Cool

I wouldn't try to unwind them by hand, that takes AGES.

The reason they're higher output than expected is because the coils are quite loose meaning there is more wire going onto each turn than there would be if it was machine wound etc.

Loose windings aren't necessarily a bad thing, part of what people love about handwound pickups is the randomness of the windings, it's what adds more harmonics and response, rather than machine wound which are neatly stacked and tighter. They'll probably be quite microphonic so make sure you pot them really well.
_________________
New Website for my handwound Pickups! Heavy Air Pickups PM me for RR pricing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
greysun



Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 421
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I unwound them to 8.8k, which is in range of the originals (I think they were anywhere from 8k to 9k, and I'm at 8.3k and 8.8k). It didn't take long, and yes, the windings are VERY loose - it's much more obvious after unwinding a bit. I'm not sure if it would be wise to use pickup wire string around them to contain it all or if that could just cause a problem, not to mention that I have no clue how to properly use that stuff... I feel like the pups have to be already potted in order to string them, and then you repot them? No clue...

I have one more strat pup to build, but I'm not sure I have enough formvar to do it. It'll be close, that's for sure. Since I want the thing done this weekend, I'll just get some antiquities or something to just be done with it if I run out, lol.

These jazzmasters are no easy build... Getting the parts, all the wiring, the super thin pickups... I'm glad this is my last jazzmaster build, sheesh! Hehe.
_________________
this is the beginning...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heavy Air



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 4309
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrapping them with string isn't too hard, it's just tucking the end bit in that's tricky. I string them then wax them afterwards. I wouldn't bother with string on Jazz pickups as they're so thin that you'd only be able to get a couple of wraps on.

You could use paper tape, pretty sure 3M make some, just cut it to width and wrap it. It's not really essential though as they'll have covers on to protect them anyway
_________________
New Website for my handwound Pickups! Heavy Air Pickups PM me for RR pricing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
tangelolemon



Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 2691
Location: Brooklyn, NY

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

correct me if I'm somehow wrong, but to my understanding output is not a function of coil resistance directly-- it's a function of number of turns.

If the number of turns is the same and the resistance is higher, it probably means the wire is higher-resistance. I'm not sure what tolerances are on magnet wire, but if they're fairly loose, I'd imagine it's highly possible that one vendor's "42 gauge" is smaller (and therefore higher-resistance per foot) than another vendor's "42 gauge."

I have a '62 jazzmaster, and those numbers you posted are right in line with what I've seen on several originals. The gold anodized late '50s models are no strangers to pickups north of 9k.
_________________
proud endorser of Curt Mangan strings, K&K acoustic guitar pickups, and Latch Lake Music slides
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
greysun



Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 421
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, the wire I used last time was the same wire I used this time... meaning, same spool that I've had for a year or 2 now since I wound my first set.

I thought the number of turns was more of a guideline to getting in the range of resistance... Nevertheless, I took off maybe 200-300 turns, which would put my neck pup at roughly 9500 turns; 8.81k, with the bridge pup at roughly 9100 turns; 8.3k, so that's still within range and hopefully will sound good after a good potting.

I sincerely hope I have enough for the last strat pup, otherwise I'll be out the $50 or so for a new one. *fingers crossed*

I'm curious about your question, tho, tangelolemon - if anyone knows if it's turns or resistance, or both, I'd be very curious to know more...
_________________
this is the beginning...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heavy Air



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
Posts: 4309
Location: London, UK

PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turn count is a better measure for tone than DCR IMO. Inductance is also better than DCR too.

Think of it as one long wire, it's the length of the wire that determines the sound. If you lay a piece of wire across a 1km distance with it pulled tight, it'll be shorter than a slack piece of wire covering the 1km distance. So when a pickup is wound loose, it's a longer piece of wire thus making a higher resistance. Lots of other things will effect that, gauge, thickness of coating, the winding pattern etc too.

Tolerance wise with wire thickness, you get what you pay for basically. I've tried wire from 9 different plants now. Some changed overall thickness in the spool, some changed resistance due to the copper's thickness not being consistent. Also 2 spools from the same vendor can differ. My essential findings was that Asian wire = crap. I get mine spooled for me by a place in the UK, I chose the thickness of wire, thickness of coating and a couple of other things. It's very consistent. I also wind sets from the same spool one after the other, so both humbucker coils would be wound immediately after each other. This means that in the rare circumstance that my wire might differ a little, the coils have a better chance of being matched.

Another thing to bear in mind is the size of the bobbin you're winding onto. 5,000 turns of wire onto a 50mm spaced humbucker bobbin will read a lower resistance than 5,000 turns on a 53mm bobbin because each turn is a little longer on the 53mm bobbin due to it being 3mm wider. They will both sound the same however.
_________________
New Website for my handwound Pickups! Heavy Air Pickups PM me for RR pricing!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
greysun



Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 421
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

got them potted and installed finally... they sound good so far. I think they're a little louder than my other ones, but that may be from magnetizing them, and that's something I can work around.

The jazz master pups have a huge low end compared to the strat pup. It's kind of crazy - my other guitar (with the same pickup setup) does the same but to a much lesser degree.

I can't complain - they worked, and I spent less than $100 (for the wire, winder (which I made), flatwork, covers and alnico 5 magnets) and made 6 pickups. Can't beat the price!!!

Thanks for your help, guys!
_________________
this is the beginning...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Johnson82



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 1733
Location: New Castle, IN

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Helluva bargain! Congrats! Cool
_________________
Plaid Sabbath wrote:
What kind of operation is that? No sawdust...no empty beer bottles...no one is using extremely foul language...no one is spending 2 hours looking for lost tools...no dust on the bodies in the finishing room…
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BeauZeau



Joined: 26 Dec 2015
Posts: 21
Location: Durham, NC USA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tangelolemon wrote:
correct me if I'm somehow wrong, but to my understanding output is not a function of coil resistance directly-- it's a function of number of turns.


Yeah, you are right, but you have to approximate when comparing things and we don't have "number of turns" meters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Guitar Refinishing and Restoration Forum Forum Index -> Pick-ups, Amps and Electronics All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group