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Stark White and Nitro
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BrightKJ



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 342
Location: Midlothian, VA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true, especially with the 2K. It contains a cyanogen which is active until it dries. Loosely, that translates to CYANIDE -- yes, the stuff that can kill you very quickly. In an aerosol form, you can breathe it in, absorb it through your skin or any other membrane on your body. It doesn't take a whole lot to do a lot of damage.

While lacquer has long term effects, the short term ones aren't nearly as bad as 2K.

If you don't know what is in the product you are using, look up up the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for it. The manufacturer is REQUIRED to provide it if you ask for it. Don't just assume that because you don't have to have professional equipment to spray something that it is safe. The MSDS will tell you exactly what the threats are and how to protect yourself.
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Jib



Joined: 20 Dec 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did some more sanding today on the primer. The Zinsser is awesome, as I said before...it's looking good. Still some scratches I have to sand out and then spray over again to get everything smooth.

Trying to keep in mind that prep work is EVERYTHING. Just like in fretwork. If you prep the board and slots perfectly, by the time you clamp and glue your frets in, they should be dead-on. Skimping on the prep work only makes for more headaches down the road. So I'm really doing my best to get the primer as good as possible before spraying the color on.

Any advice on what grit I should sand to before using the Duplicolor? Should I use 220 or 150 paper so it'll have something to 'grab' instead of getting it really smooth?

I've gotten nitro on my skin quite a bit...whoops. I have probably been underestimating the negative health effects and should be taking this way more seriously.

Good advice about the hoodie, I should keep one out in the garage where I spray just to get in the habit of putting one on whenever I do.

At this point I'm really considering going to my friend for the clearcoat. He has an auto shop and hopefully he can not only spray the clearcoat for me, but teach me how to do it. I've only used nitro before and have no experience with the 2K stuff. I would expect he has better ventilation in his auto shop than I have in my garage too.

Just plugging along with the prep work now. The Duplicolor came in but I'm resisting the urge to spray before the primer coat is perfect. Over the years I've learned getting ahead of myself in any guitar work is never a good idea. Slow and steady.
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statorvane



Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 1949
Location: Upstate New York

PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 400 grit (not P400 but 400) is about as high as I'd go sanding the primer.
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Jib



Joined: 20 Dec 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still working on this one. Had a lot of other stuff come in so it's been on the backburner.

The pickup rout is driving me insane. I got a really good and tight fit, so when I hit it with primer, the pickup no longer fits.

The customer is also extremely obsessive about 'gaps' and wants everything as perfect as possible with as little clearance around the pickup as is necessary for height adjustment.

So I need to sand it back farther than necessary, so when I hit it with primer it'll be where it needs to be. I can't leave the inside of the pickup rout looking messed up even though it wouldn't be visible with the pickup installed.

Hand sanding a pickup rout after you've routed it....ugh. What a nightmare. Trying to keep everything completely square and even and getting the pickup to fit perfectly after the whole thing is painted is probably going to be the hardest part of this whole job.

It's getting there. I've ended up filling a LOT of areas on the body with veneer, epoxy, superglue...it's an aftermarket body that is very far off from an actual P-bass, and has been needing a lot of work.

I did do a test coat with the Duplicolor though, and it looks awesome. For the time being I've decided I'm gonna try Deft when it comes time for a clearcoat. I'm so familiar with nitro and it is non-yellowing, so....worst that can happen is I strip it off and do it over, which at this point seems like a vacation.
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BrightKJ



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 342
Location: Midlothian, VA

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only problem with Deft that I've ever seen is that it can take FOREVER to harden... like months, not weeks... if ever. I had one guitar that after almost 8 months was still so soft that I could easily push my fingernail into it and it only had one and a half cans on it with very light coats so they had time to flash in between. YMMV
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Jib



Joined: 20 Dec 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard that the Deft that comes in quart cans doesn't have the same issues as the aerosol cans. I'm not sure about that though.

The never hardening thing is why I don't want to use acrylic clear. I used Duplicolor clearcoat before and even 8 months later it still gets dented from pushing my fingernail into it.

I heard CAB acrylic lacquer from Sherwin Williams is good stuff but they wouldn't sell it to me.
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statorvane



Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 1949
Location: Upstate New York

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've heard that the Deft that comes in quart cans doesn't have the same issues as the aerosol cans. I'm not sure about that though.


Actually it does have the same issues. Frankly when I first tried Deft in the aerosol cans it was pretty good. Later it just wasn't the same. I tried using their brushing lacquer and it took a long time to harden - I mean a couple of years. I am trying the Minwax brushing lacquer now - thinned by about 70 %. It seems about the same as the Deft brand brushing lacquer. I am also throwing out the rule of threes and going with one coat per day for 9 days (or twelve - I usually add a few coats as extra insurance).

I think Federal regulations aimed at reducing VOCs have lead to the current, sorry state of clear nitro lacquer, and polyurethane as well. A friend of mine had similar issues with polyurethane floor finishes. He eventually contacted a chemical engineer at Minwax about their polyurethane finishes and was told that thinning the finish by 50 to 70% and allowing a longer dry time would help. Funny, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought most of the VOCs were in the thinner.
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BrightKJ



Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 342
Location: Midlothian, VA

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

statorvane wrote:
Quote:
I've heard that the Deft that comes in quart cans doesn't have the same issues as the aerosol cans. I'm not sure about that though.


Actually it does have the same issues. Frankly when I first tried Deft in the aerosol cans it was pretty good. Later it just wasn't the same. I tried using their brushing lacquer and it took a long time to harden - I mean a couple of years. I am trying the Minwax brushing lacquer now - thinned by about 70 %. It seems about the same as the Deft brand brushing lacquer. I am also throwing out the rule of threes and going with one coat per day for 9 days (or twelve - I usually add a few coats as extra insurance).

I think Federal regulations aimed at reducing VOCs have lead to the current, sorry state of clear nitro lacquer, and polyurethane as well. A friend of mine had similar issues with polyurethane floor finishes. He eventually contacted a chemical engineer at Minwax about their polyurethane finishes and was told that thinning the finish by 50 to 70% and allowing a longer dry time would help. Funny, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought most of the VOCs were in the thinner.

The normal minwax polyurethane in spray cans and the cans for brushing on and what they use on floors are not the same. The spray/brush-on kind will dry rock hard within a few hours. I've used it on multiple guitars with very good results, but it does impart a yellow tint to the finish. The poly for floors has retardants in it to slow the drying time since it is typically used on a much larger area and in very thick coats.
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marksound



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 16668
Location: OKUSA

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

statorvane wrote:
Quote:
I've heard that the Deft that comes in quart cans doesn't have the same issues as the aerosol cans. I'm not sure about that though.


Actually it does have the same issues. Frankly when I first tried Deft in the aerosol cans it was pretty good. Later it just wasn't the same. I tried using their brushing lacquer and it took a long time to harden - I mean a couple of years. I am trying the Minwax brushing lacquer now - thinned by about 70 %. It seems about the same as the Deft brand brushing lacquer. I am also throwing out the rule of threes and going with one coat per day for 9 days (or twelve - I usually add a few coats as extra insurance).

I think Federal regulations aimed at reducing VOCs have lead to the current, sorry state of clear nitro lacquer, and polyurethane as well. A friend of mine had similar issues with polyurethane floor finishes. He eventually contacted a chemical engineer at Minwax about their polyurethane finishes and was told that thinning the finish by 50 to 70% and allowing a longer dry time would help. Funny, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought most of the VOCs were in the thinner.

I use a lot of Minwax black can lacquer and never have any trouble.




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Jib



Joined: 20 Dec 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

statorvane wrote:
Actually it does have the same issues. Frankly when I first tried Deft in the aerosol cans it was pretty good. Later it just wasn't the same. I tried using their brushing lacquer and it took a long time to harden - I mean a couple of years. I am trying the Minwax brushing lacquer now - thinned by about 70 %. It seems about the same as the Deft brand brushing lacquer. I am also throwing out the rule of threes and going with one coat per day for 9 days (or twelve - I usually add a few coats as extra insurance).

I think Federal regulations aimed at reducing VOCs have lead to the current, sorry state of clear nitro lacquer, and polyurethane as well. A friend of mine had similar issues with polyurethane floor finishes. He eventually contacted a chemical engineer at Minwax about their polyurethane finishes and was told that thinning the finish by 50 to 70% and allowing a longer dry time would help. Funny, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought most of the VOCs were in the thinner.


Welp, I guess Deft is off the table then.

https://www.amazon.com/Deft-Interior-Exterior-Water-Based-Polyurethane/dp/B002RIJTSC/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1495917753&sr=8-7&keywords=clear+acrylic+lacquer

That looks like it might work, but I have no experience with spraying polyurethane finishes. I also assume it would probably work fine over the Zinsser BIN primer, but if I put Duplicolor over it, the polyurethane probably won't adhere?

I have a feeling I might just end up doing what you did and using the Duplicolor cans exclusively. Just shoot them over the primer, enough to buff it out, and leave it at that. I need to get this thing out of here and as much as I'd like to do a clearcoat, it's causing way too much stress and anxiety for me.

I got a can of Rustoleum Acrylic Lacquer in clear gloss and am testing it out on scrap wood. Even then it's going to take a while to see how it performs, to build it up enough and then let it cure and try buffing it out.

I got some Frog Tape and used that to protect the inside of the neck pocket and Music Man pickup rout that I did. I was having issues where the primer was building up inside those cavities too much and causing the neck and pickup to not fit.

I've had to rebuild a lot of areas with veneer and epoxy and superglue, then sanding and priming, rinse and repeat. Relocated the bridge holes, strap button holes, pickguard holes, had to make the neck pocket thicker and fill the inside because it was so messed up.

Looking a lot better now. When I get more of this together I'll post some more pics. Thanks again for all the advice...I really appreciate it.

Just suffering from paralysis by analysis here, I think. To top it all off my spraygun started leaking. Apparently even shooting primer in peace is too much to ask at this point too :p

(I tried a rattle can of Zinsser, but this job has required filling and touching up areas of 1" or smaller, and the spraycan is just not accurate enough to get a nice, even coat on those areas....I've been using an HVLP mini detail gun and slightly thinning the Zinsser with denatured alcohol and it's been working great for this)
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marksound



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 16668
Location: OKUSA

PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jib wrote:
statorvane wrote:
Actually it does have the same issues. Frankly when I first tried Deft in the aerosol cans it was pretty good. Later it just wasn't the same. I tried using their brushing lacquer and it took a long time to harden - I mean a couple of years. I am trying the Minwax brushing lacquer now - thinned by about 70 %. It seems about the same as the Deft brand brushing lacquer. I am also throwing out the rule of threes and going with one coat per day for 9 days (or twelve - I usually add a few coats as extra insurance).

I think Federal regulations aimed at reducing VOCs have lead to the current, sorry state of clear nitro lacquer, and polyurethane as well. A friend of mine had similar issues with polyurethane floor finishes. He eventually contacted a chemical engineer at Minwax about their polyurethane finishes and was told that thinning the finish by 50 to 70% and allowing a longer dry time would help. Funny, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought most of the VOCs were in the thinner.


Welp, I guess Deft is off the table then.

https://www.amazon.com/Deft-Interior-Exterior-Water-Based-Polyurethane/dp/B002RIJTSC/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1495917753&sr=8-7&keywords=clear+acrylic+lacquer

That looks like it might work, but I have no experience with spraying polyurethane finishes. I also assume it would probably work fine over the Zinsser BIN primer, but if I put Duplicolor over it, the polyurethane probably won't adhere?

I have a feeling I might just end up doing what you did and using the Duplicolor cans exclusively. Just shoot them over the primer, enough to buff it out, and leave it at that. I need to get this thing out of here and as much as I'd like to do a clearcoat, it's causing way too much stress and anxiety for me.

I got a can of Rustoleum Acrylic Lacquer in clear gloss and am testing it out on scrap wood. Even then it's going to take a while to see how it performs, to build it up enough and then let it cure and try buffing it out.

I got some Frog Tape and used that to protect the inside of the neck pocket and Music Man pickup rout that I did. I was having issues where the primer was building up inside those cavities too much and causing the neck and pickup to not fit.

I've had to rebuild a lot of areas with veneer and epoxy and superglue, then sanding and priming, rinse and repeat. Relocated the bridge holes, strap button holes, pickguard holes, had to make the neck pocket thicker and fill the inside because it was so messed up.

Looking a lot better now. When I get more of this together I'll post some more pics. Thanks again for all the advice...I really appreciate it.

Just suffering from paralysis by analysis here, I think. To top it all off my spraygun started leaking. Apparently even shooting primer in peace is too much to ask at this point too :p

(I tried a rattle can of Zinsser, but this job has required filling and touching up areas of 1" or smaller, and the spraycan is just not accurate enough to get a nice, even coat on those areas....I've been using an HVLP mini detail gun and slightly thinning the Zinsser with denatured alcohol and it's been working great for this)


Dude, you're overthinking this.

People have bad results with Deft because they don't know how to use it. If it's not hardening, they've probably gone too heavy. In the past I used a lot of Deft on a project with absolutely no problems.

You can use Duplicolor Perfect Match color with urethane. I do it all the time. I use all different brands of color with urethane clear, and I rarely have any trouble.

Rustoleum clear is acrylic. You'll have a problem with that if you leave a guitar on a stand for any length of time. I speak from experience.

If you're having trouble with neck pocket and pickup cavity fit, you're shooting too much material. Slow down.

Forget about the shellac primer. It's overkill for a guitar project. I use a lot of Rustoleum sandable white priner.

Guitar finishing isn't any different than any other kind of project. Just don't overthink it.
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Jib



Joined: 20 Dec 2016
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys. Thanks again for all the advice.

I decided to use Colortone white pigment in Behlen's Stringed Instrument Lacquer. I've used the Behlen's quite a bit and was most comfortable knowing that I already know what to expect from it and how it works.

I based the ratio on 1oz. of pigment per 1qt., and to not exceed 15%. In reality I ended up using a much smaller ratio. I have these little plastic measuring cups that aren't affected by lacquer, so I can pour in 3oz of lacquer and then the appropriate amount of pigment. Probably around .15oz. A very small amount.

I'm not done yet, but the initial coats look very promising. The adhesion of the nitro to the white Zinsser primer is excellent. And sitting out in garage for about a week with a lot of sun exposure, there has been ZERO yellowing.

It seems it's true that the clearcoat is what yellows. I haven't cleared it and it looks fine. It's also a high gloss and I have no doubts that once I wet sand and buff it, it'll come out great. I do want to build up a fairly thick coat since I won't be clearing it.

I do have the cans of Duplicolor handy that I might use on another project. I just have way more experience with nitro and wanted to have a safe bet on this one.

Very excited, and ironically enough this was a lot easier than I thought. Couldn't have gotten here without all the advice from this forum, though. Thanks again!

I'll try to post pictures when it's all done. Have had a ton of other guitar projects and jobs going at the moment so it's been on a bit of a hiatus.
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ladyfinisher



Joined: 21 Feb 2013
Posts: 398
Location: California

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an air supplied breathing system. I bought it when I was spraying all day every day. They are great.

3M has a very good disposable mask. It is good for 40 hours. I have used it when my air system couldn't be used. The trick is not using it longer than 40 hours and storing it in the sealed bag. They run about $20.00.

Ladyfinisher
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